Stability and performance problems recording music

[frugihoyi]

Hello, I've come here in hopes that someone can help me with my recording woes. I have two problems which are holding me back and costing me a lot of time and patience in recording my music:

• STABILITY: My DAW (Cakewalk Sonar 8.5 Producer, 32-bit) crashes under certain circustances.
  
• PERFORMANCE: Playback is choppy when I have too many tracks/effects.
  

I want to know what is causing my problems. Should I upgrade Sonar? Should I get another DAW that is more stable? Should I get a new computer? Should I get an external harddisk? Should I get a new audio interface?

STABILITY
My problem with Sonar crashing usually happens when I insert certain plugins into my tracks. Someone told me that it's probably because the versions of these plugins are not compatible with my version of Sonar. Does that make sense? Sometimes Sonar also crashes for other random reasons, but that is not so often. I am forced to turn off my audio interface before I go into Hybernate on my computer otherwise Windows crashes. When I come back from hybernate I have to wait until Windows is running before I turn it back on or the whole computer crashes. Is it normal for a USB audio interface to be so sensitive?

PERFORMANCE
Playback is choppy and I get dropouts when I have too many tracks/effects.
The last song I made had 43 tracks and probably even more than that in the number of plugins inserted. I don't want to limit myself by using less tracks but I admit that I could be smarter with my use of effects; maybe I don't need so many plugins. Still it would be good if I didn't have to worry so much about technical limitations. So what's the best way for me to improve performance? Changing the buffer size doesn't help.

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I ask again! Should I upgrade Sonar? Should I get another DAW that is more stable? Should I get a new computer? Install my DAW on an external harddisk? Have my audio files on an external harddisk? Should I get a new audio interface?

Should I upgrade Sonar / get a different DAW?
I like Sonar a lot despite the fact that it has many bugs (considering upgrading and assuming that X1 has less bugs), but it also seems to me that not so many people use Sonar, especially here in Europe. So far I've only been recording at home, but now I'm trying to get some work in a studio and considering getting Pro Tools, as I am under the impression that this is the most common DAW used in studios. Is that true?
Important things in a DAW for me:

• Ability to manipulate clips. What I mean is that I want to have the option of inserting effects, changing the volume, fades, etc on single clips and not just on the entire track.
• Easiness in editing MIDI data. I don't like the setup in Sonar 8.5 and I don't know if it has improved in Sonar X1.
• STABILITY! Less crashing, less bugs (Sonar 8.5 has a lot of them) and better/faster performance.
• The ability to have layers in my tracks.
• The option to actually edit individual audio files in a destructive way could also be useful.
• Ability to time-strech / compress audio
• I'm sure there's more, but this is all I can think of right now.

   

Should I get a new computer?
I have a laptop right now and it's my only computer, meaning that I'm running Sonar and everything else in my life on the same machine. Does it make sense to get a computer exclusively for music or is it enough if I just make sure that I don't have too many things running at the same time I'm making music? My laptop specs:

• Sony Vaio VGN-FW
• Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 @ 2.53GHz 2.53GHz
• RAM: 8GB
• Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

Should I get an external harddisk?
I've heard that using an external harddisk can help, but I'm not sure just how much difference it will make. Besides I'm not sure HOW to use the harddisk -- Should I install my DAW on on it or should I have my audio files on it? What about the specs on the harddisk? What counts? RPM and space for sure, but anything else? Is 7200 RPM good enough? Do they make them faster?

Should I get a new audio interface?
I am currently using the M-Audio Fast Track Ultra. Does my audio interface have anything to do with the stability and performance of my DAW or is my M-Audio good enough? Like I explained at the beginning I am actually forced to turn it off before I go into Hybernate on my computer otherwise Windows crashes. When I come back from hybernate I have to wait until Windows is running before I turn it back on or the whole computer crashes. Is it normal for a USB audio interface to be so sensitive?

I really look forward to hearing some helpful responses from people who know what they're talking about. I'm at a crosspoint in my life where I'm trying to figure out what career to choose. I'm actually considering giving up following the path of the music producer, but if I can get a good reliable setup going, then I'll be able to make a more educated decision about my future :)

DAW
Cakewalk Sonar 8.5 Producer 32-bit

AUDIO INTERFACE
M-Audio Fast Track Ultra

PC
Sony Vaio VGN-FW490
Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 @ 2.53GHz 2.53GHz
RAM: 8GB
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit

[Paulo]

I'd start here:

... PERFORMANCE: Playback is choppy when I have too many tracks/effects.

Aren't you overloading your 'puter?... If you don't have all those plugins, does it work Ok?

There's alawys some place where the CPU can't handle anymore.

[mickbrit55]

Hi Frugi

I'm a Sonar user too and I don't get any crashes with it. I can see a few things that may be a problem on your setup.

Firstly, are you running 8.5 or 8.5.3? There is an update on the Cakewalk site to rectify that.

Your laptop is always going to be less forgiving than a desktop. Why? Because you can easilly upgrade your RAM on a desktop. The 8Gig you have I would say is the bare minimum for a DAW these days. If you are going to use track counts of 50 and up then you are going to need 16Gig+ to keep your system stable. I would definitely look at getting 4x8gig if I were you.

Are you putting the same effects on different tracks? e.g a seperate reverb on 10 tracks etc. You can put the effect on a bus and then insert a send from each track to the bus, having control over the amount of the effect per track and only using one effect. This will save you a ton of valuable memory.

As far as your DAW crashing when coming out of hibernate, I would definitely turn off any of your power saving options - ie. no hibernate, no screen save and no disks going to hibernate either. This is common practise with a DAW now. Also, ensure ALL of your drivers are up to date. That means from the motherboard, your LAN and PCIe drivers, your interface -  EVERYTHING. More problems are caused with out of date drivers than anything else.

So, I would say you need a new computer with at least 16Gig RAM and I would definitely go with 2 internal hard drives. 7200 is fine. My advice is to get a 500Gig system drive and a 1Tb extra drive. Go for the fastest processor you can afford. Upgrading to Sonar X1 isn't going to help you until your computer is stable and of a high enough spec.

Hope this helps you

Mick.

[frugihoyi]

Firstly, are you running 8.5 or 8.5.3? There is an update on the Cakewalk site to rectify that.

8.5.3.282

Your laptop is always going to be less forgiving than a desktop. Why? Because you can easilly upgrade your RAM on a desktop. The 8Gig you have I would say is the bare minimum for a DAW these days. If you are going to use track counts of 50 and up then you are going to need 16Gig+ to keep your system stable. I would definitely look at getting 4x8gig if I were you.

But I can easily upgrade RAM on my laptop too. Well I can't anymore because I've reached the limit, but desktops also have a limit.

Are you putting the same effects on different tracks? e.g a seperate reverb on 10 tracks etc. You can put the effect on a bus and then insert a send from each track to the bus, having control over the amount of the effect per track and only using one effect. This will save you a ton of valuable memory.

Well I might be guilty of having the exact same effect on two tracks but I know it's not a good thing and if I do it it's a mistake due to organization issues. I do try to have the effects on a bus instead.

As far as your DAW crashing when coming out of hibernate, I would definitely turn off any of your power saving options - ie. no hibernate, no screen save and no disks going to hibernate either. This is common practise with a DAW now. Also, ensure ALL of your drivers are up to date. That means from the motherboard, your LAN and PCIe drivers, your interface -  EVERYTHING. More problems are caused with out of date drivers than anything else.

Do you recommend getting rid of hybernate just to prevent crashes or will it also give me better performance? I know I have the latest driver for my sound card, but the others I haven't checked in a while. Is it necessary to check one by one or will Windows Update tell me about what things inside the computer need updating?

[mickbrit55]

You need more RAM for what you are trying to do ... period. Update your drivers and yes, anything that stops your DAW working instantly will give you better performnce. Don't trust the Windows update ... do it manually

Mick.

[Paulo]

Sorry, 32 bit can only deal with 3GB no matter what you do...

You need 64 bit OS and the same with the DAW, other than that, forget putting more ram on the 'puter, it wont work.

[mickbrit55]

Sorry, 32 bit can only deal with 3GB no matter what you do...

You need 64 bit OS and the same with the DAW, other than that, forget putting more ram on the 'puter, it wont work.

Damn, you're right Paulo. I completely forgot about that. I have been on 64 bit for so long now lol.

Mick.

[frugihoyi]

Sorry, 32 bit can only deal with 3GB no matter what you do...

You need 64 bit OS and the same with the DAW, other than that, forget putting more ram on the 'puter, it wont work.

Yeah and I upgraded about a year ago to 8GB RAM just for Sonar. Didn't think there was much difference. Apparently there was no difference at all if 32 bit can only handle up to 3GB. I would be excited to install the 64 bit version now and check out the difference... only problem is that when I first installed Sonar I DID install the 64 bit version (I think it was plugin issues). However it was so unstable that I uninstalled it and replaced it with 32 bit.

[mickbrit55]

Are you using Windows 7 64bit OS? Because that's what's needed to get to the extra ram.

Mick.

[CosmicDolphin]

It's not usually the DAW but the plugins that cause them to crash.

Too many variables to predict any stability with certainty. That's why there's only a couple of HP PC's that have been certified for the native version of Pro Tools.

CD

[frugihoyi]

Are you using Windows 7 64bit OS? Because that's what's needed to get to the extra ram.

Mick.

I am 

RAM RAM RAM

[detune]

Many laptops have a 5400 RPM hard drive.  With that many tracks, it is tough for a hard drive of that speed to keep up.

A 7200 RPM external might help, but fact that it's connected via a USB interface might cause a bottleneck as well. 

[frugihoyi]

Many laptops have a 5400 RPM hard drive.  With that many tracks, it is tough for a hard drive of that speed to keep up.

A 7200 RPM external might help, but fact that it's connected via a USB interface might cause a bottleneck as well. 

Mine is actually 7200 RPM. I'm going to add an external 7200 RPM for my audio files and libraries. I don't think I'm even going to test it via USB; will go straight for the best: eSATA into my computer's ExpressCard slot.

[mickbrit55]

Many laptops have a 5400 RPM hard drive.  With that many tracks, it is tough for a hard drive of that speed to keep up.

A 7200 RPM external might help, but fact that it's connected via a USB interface might cause a bottleneck as well. 

That's why I would never use a laptop for a DAW and I would never recommend an external drive either. What you need is total optimization otherwise you enbd up with these kinds of problems. I'm not saying you CAN'T use a laptop, but you have to live within it's limitations.

Mick.