Recording Guitar

[Tacman7]

I've neglected my guitar for quite a while and am trying to get a sound I like, or at least I can live with!

It seems good while I'm playing live but the playback doesn't seem the same.

I've tried different devices and also compressing the track or other plug ins.

I can get a lead sound that's ok but rythem guitar, a distorted sound, that not

muddy has eluded me.

Just wondering if anyone had any tips or tricks to try. The basic recording method that works for you.


I'm using an m-audio black box but I also have an old art sgx2000 express.

[NickT]

Ah....In search of tone!

It is hard to get a decent rhythm tone, at home or in the studio. What works for me is:

Using a PodXt, I find an amp model, speaker emulation and mic setup that sounds good when I jam.

Then reduce the gain to where it's almost uncomfortable. (have to work at the track more!)

I will then mult the track.

My favorite plug for guitar is the PSP vintage Warmer. But a little compression and make-up gain will work.

When I EQ, I pull back the 100hz with a q of 1-1.4 about 2 db. I also boost the 3k about the same.

I will often record the same part with different guitars and amp models and layer them and split them wide in the stereo field.

Hope that gives you a starting point!

Nick

[Tacman7]

Definately some things to try!

I felt like the stereo image I have is a big blob sitting in the middle of the room.

That multiple guitars spread across the stereo image is something to work with.

I like the sound the creed guitarist gets, massive yet you don't loose the rest of the band(extreme example). I like the way the guitar sounds in letdown.

[robwood]

A lot of good advise from Nick (thanks for sharing some of your secrets ) I'm always searching for a better rhythm tone myself, since that's my main style.  For rhythm stuff on the clean side I always gravitate to the Roland Jazz Chorus amp sim (JC-120).  Loads of flexibility with respect to warmth and edge.  But even with that, i always end up double or triple tracking and panning apart to get a fuller sound, and like Nick, i scoop out everything below about 100 Hz.  This could prove to be an interesting thread, hope you other guitar guys share some wisdom.

rob

[Cary]

I hope to see more posts here as well.

I echo Nick's comment about less gain when recording.  Use less distortion than you would use during a live gig.

Other than that, I'm not much help here because I do everything possible to avoid using a guitar amp sim when I record.  I do understand why POd's and the like are so popular - you can get very close without having to spend mucho bucks, plus it's much easier to deal with late night recording sessions.  However, I firmly believe that a properly recorded amplifier will beat out a simulator.

[NickT]

I agree Cary -

I would love to mic up my Trace Elliot 50 watt Speedtwin amp into my 2X12 celestion vintage 30s bottom.

But I would soon be single and kicked out of my townehome! LOL 

Guitar rig, Amplitube, Rock Amp Legends are all good also.

Here is a free one to play with:

http://frettedsynth.asseca.com/ampsims.html

Nick

[Bobby Watson]

When I first started the online collaboration thing, I tried to mic some of my amps.
I remember the first time I set up my Carvin (the big monster), and hit a few notes to warm up. The china tried to walk out of the cabinet. Kathy looked at me seriously. And, very quietly said four meaningful words... "Make that go away!"

The studio is in an out building now. But, I haven't ever gone back to mic'ing. I need to, one of these days. But, in truth, it sure is simpler just to pick up what's already plugged in and queued up, twist a couple of knobs. And, record away, without worrying about fans, telephones, dogs, or cussin' when the thing plays the wrong note (funny how they'll do that!)
BW@

[wickerman]

You might want to look up Toneport by Line 6. It's an amazing "next generation" of the PODXT. Tons of amps/cabs/mics/mic placements/efx that you can mix and match to your hearts content. You can also add a bunch of boutique amps, both for rock/blues and metal. It's not a cranked tube amp in a guitar room etc. etc. but you can definitely get a very usable tone for any style of playing. The UX1 is less than $200 CAD. I have it and also the Metal amp add-on and I'm in heaven!!! 

http://www.line6.com

Try recording multiple takes on multiple guitars, multiple settings on multiple amps etc. etc. etc. Mixing and matching them together will get you a full tone, regardless of the style of music.
You should really kill everything below 100Hz as has already been pointed out but even higher if you are into really heavy distorted tones. Be sure to record with full mids because you cannot add them later. Electric guitar is all about the mids... bottom end really comes from the bass guitar in a mix.

Geoff

[Studioplayer]

Ah yes. Finding good tone.  Can't tell you how many nights (and years) that I've spent trying to find good tones. That's all I was doing last night. As the guys above, what I have learned is that you have to back off the gain more than what you would normally use live. Recording is much more sensitive. It pick ups everything that you could easily get away with when playing live. I'll always tweak my sound to suit for any particular song. Play the song, jam away and tweak the tone till you get what you like. What you hear is what you get. It really takes a lot of experimenting. Personally I like crunchy/grungy type of sounds to clean tones. I'm using a Roland GT-6 for direct stuff. It has a lot of great sounds but requires a lot of work getting good patches. I would love to get a PodXT as well. I can't speak for the Pod or other amp sims but I imagine it would be the same in that I would not use the factory presets. Not sure who sets those up but they are never very good for recording let alone playing through an amp. Make your own tones. Let your ears be the judge. It takes a lot of fine tuning. The guitar can make a difference as well. My Strat may sound good on a particular patch but doesn't work well with my Tele. I have different patches for both guitars. Different again for my acoustic. Another thing to watch for is any pickup hum. I find when I use certain amp sims or compressors it enhances noise. ( I thought compressors would take away noise??). My Tele with single coil pickups is the hardest to record just for that reason. Backing off my volume pot on the guitar fixes it some but it also flattens out the sound a bit. Also stay away from the monitor of course. I also do the same in multi-tracking, hard-panning & layering. I will get the best tone I can, record and eq a bit afterwards.

I'm also recording my amp. Still experimenting a lot and have yet to post a song with it but I have noticed a big difference. It really is a great way to go. Much greater warmth and for some reason, and I don't know why but you can get much more volume out of it. My recorded wav file can be small and tight but it cuts through the music and sounds big. I'm sure there's a technical reason for it. The downfall is amp buzz. The upside is feedback and all that great natural stuff. As far as I know most pro studios will mic the amps. I would bet Creed does. You can't simulate that sound but don't quote me on it.  Fortunately I have a separate studio from the house and can record as loud as I want but.... I get lazy and just plug and play with the GT-6.  It's much harder getting nice recorded tones with the amp. I never use the GT6 with my amp. Just the regular stomp boxes and expression pedals. I will when I use dual amps and then I use it to color my sound behind my tube amp. Works great live.

Have fun and keep tweaking. 

Disclaimer... I am no pro on sound and can babble a lot.  

Dave

[wickerman]

Dave,

Yeah, the never-ending saga that is finding "that" guitar tone... too many variables in there methinks... 

Yer amp sounds better 'cause the speaker is moving air. I have a Marshall AVT50, an SM57 and a LDC that I would love to be able to crank and record everything. Family, neighbours, etc. etc. just don't allow it unfortunatley.

My mic'd up Marshall cannot be duplicated with my Toneport but I can def get as close as I need to get for what I am doing. Actually, getting a good recorded tone from your amp is easier than you think - however, it does require a little experimentation. A slight adjustment to the mike can make a huge difference to yer tone.
Most pros will record with not just one amp but many amps. But..., some are using POD/VAmp's etc. in their studios for various reasons/applications.

I do agree with Cary that a well-recorded mic'd amp is hard to beat...

Geoff

** Oh yeah, I'm babbling as well... 

[DoozerDan]

Awesome, this is just what I've been looking for  I'll have to read this as soon as I get time. 

Dan.

[Studioplayer]

Geoff

Actually once the amp and mic are set up it's pretty easy. I should have said that I feel a bit limited with my sounds since I can only use what pedals I have. I have a Rat, Digital Delay, Vox Wah & Tremolo. With the GT6 it gives me a huge selection of distortion pedals. Too much fun and variety. The GT6 does not work well with tube amps. Might as well go direct.  I have heard the 'moving air' explaination before but just forgot. There really is a big difference in sound and I would like to mic the amp more often. I'm not sure what you mean about full mids though. I was going through some patches last night and had to back off on the mids to get rid of the hollowness. 

Dave

[wickerman]

Geoff

Actually once the amp and mic are set up it's pretty easy. I should have said that I feel a bit limited with my sounds since I can only use what pedals I have. I have a Rat, Digital Delay, Vox Wah & Tremolo. With the GT6 it gives me a huge selection of distortion pedals. Too much fun and variety. The GT6 does not work well with tube amps. Might as well go direct.  I have heard the 'moving air' explaination before but just forgot. There really is a big difference in sound and I would like to mic the amp more often. I'm not sure what you mean about full mids though. I was going through some patches last night and had to back off on the mids to get rid of the hollowness. 

Dave

Too many choices does make it more difficult sometimes - we have too many choices in life already right??? 
The mids are everything to the guitar when recording. If you don't have any mids, the only thing left is top and bottom ends. In a mix, the top end of the guitar sounds gets sucked up by vox (mostly) and cymbals and the bottom end gets eaten up by the bass/kick. What's left? Mids. That's where the guitar sits. If you don't record your guitar with mids, there's nothing left but a big hole. You may have to pull the mids down in the mix but it's better to record with them - you can always take them out but you can't add them after the fact.

When I first started recording, I basically had the same setup as I do to play live - more of a scooped sound - very little midrange, tons of bottom and some top. Took me a long time to figure out why I couldn't get the guitar to sit well in a mix. I finally listened to what I was being told about the mids by a good pal and whamo! All of a sudden, my guitar came through in the mix.

Now, I kinda hate that really scooped sound but prefer a little more midrange when playing live. Either way, the mids are the way to go.

Geoff

[DoozerDan]

Hey Geoff, I use a toneport UX1, I just got it, what sort of Amp models etc. do you like? What ones sound good in your opinion?  When I get the time I'm going to have to put some of this really useful tips in to action

[wickerman]

Hey Geoff, I use a toneport UX1, I just got it, what sort of Amp models etc. do you like? What ones sound good in your opinion?  When I get the time I'm going to have to put some of this really useful tips in to action

Doozer,

Well, the Toneport ships with many good amp model IMO. I have the added-on Metal pack, so forgive me if I can't remember all the ones' that were shipped with it.
I guess it really depends on what music you are into and what tone you like. I play mostly hard rock/metal, so I have a pretty heavily distorted guitar sound. I like the Brit J-800, which is the Marshall JCM800 (I'm a Marshall guy...  ), the Solo 100 Soldano emulation, and the Line 6 Spinal Puppet. For clean sounds, that JC-120 based on Roland Jazz Chorus is super clean, if that's what you are looking for. I see they have added an emulation based on the Orange A30 amp - don't know what that sounds like. I use the Metal boutique amps for most of my recording now but the ones above will yield good results out of the box. I don't use any efx when recording, so you're on your own there. I would suggest using the Noise Gate tho...

You definitely want to try different cabs/mics/mic placements with each of the amps. Believe it or not, I've had the Toneport for almost a year now and I'm still testing different combinations.

Have fun with it too - it's great trying new and interesting sounds!!!