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Offline Studioplayer

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Hey guys..CD, Nick, Cary, Davidinoz and anyone else. You guys all seem to get really good finished products. Got any tips when it comes to mixing down tracks? Do you eq out the bass from the guitars? Do you compress much on any instruments? Any tips would be helpful on how to make our tracks come alive. I know every song is different but there must be some basic ideas.  ???

Mine are always muddy.  :'(
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 03:03:36 PM by Studioplayer »


Offline Cary

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There's no easy answer to this.

If I had to sum the important points up, I'd say accurate listening environment, monitors, knowledge, ear training, and lots of experience are what lead to good balanced mixes.  For me, it's been many years of recording experience and doing hundreds of mixes which have helped me understand what works and what doesn't.  Not that I believe I've arrived.

Understanding the trends of modern music and listening to current reference material is important if you want things to sound fresh.  There are certain trends which will force the masses to agree that a particular mix is 'good' however most would agree (now, looking back) that the mixes of the eighties were over soaked in reverb.  It's a thought to ponder.

I can't recommend any magic tool that will get you mixes that sound great.  There are lots of tools which aid the process, but it comes down to ears and experience.

If you want to do some ear training, play around with harbal.  It will help you to understand what you are hearing.  I do want to qualify my comment about harbal however.  Just because you have a mix that seems balanced in harbal doesn't mean it will sound nice.  For those with less than perfect listening environment, harbal can help identify some problem areas which aren't otherwise heard.  Try your best to not make harbal the necessary tool in your mixes.  Learn what you're hearing so you can make the changes with your ears.  I can bet that most pro mixes have not been processed in harbal.  This is a case of 'do as I say, not as I do' because I still find myself correcting things in harbal from time to time.

Keep doing mixes
Cary


Offline Gerk

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One very important thing (at least I think it's very important).  Less can be more.  Don't push things to extremes without very good reasons to do so, on anything.  Mixing has a ton of subtlety to it.  That goes for EQ'ing, effects, overall mix levels, basically everything. 

A thing I've seen a lot of, especially people coming from the analog world into digital is to mix things very hot.  In analog land this was not too bad of a way to go, in digital land this is very bad.  You need a good amount of headroom, even on your final mixes.  Make it "loud" later, keep the headroom until then.


Offline NickT

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Back in '04 -'05, I started putting my mixes out there to be critiqued. People seemed to like them, so I dove in and read everything I could on the subjects of recording, mixing and mastering. I bought good monitors, headphones, pro sound interfaces, PodXt, Pre-amps, Compressors and decent mics.

I thought I was getting good, then I heard a mix that this guy named Cary did over at CC. I was blown away with the balance, dynamics and most of all the vocal treatment. So I bugged the heck out of him until he would critique my stuff and give me pointers.   8)

The real secret is, learn about compression, EQ and FX placement and it's own eq. Ask yourself "Can I hear everything?" Move things around the sound-stage so they don't step on each other. Eq the fundamental frequencies of an instrument and pull out those same freqs in the other tracks. And that great sounding beefy guitar sounds great by itself...but will muddy up the mix. Pull back the lows where the bass and kick sit. (not your sound Dave...just a general statement)..

Then listen to some music that is in the genre of what you are working on. "Tune" your ears. Go back to the reference track many times during your mix or eq'ing the master.

Than after all that, get Cary to mix it!!!!!  >:D

Nick



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Offline Studioplayer

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Some good advice guys. 8) I put up this thread not only for myself but for others to read that need this kind of info. Mixing is a real art and takes a lot of trial & error.

I was reading on another site that you shouldn't pan guitars hard right & left. They mentioned no more than 50%.  ???  Not sure if that's really true. I know of a few albums that I listen too that have guitars panned very hard. Sounds good to me.

I was experimenting with mono vs stereo last night. Panning 2 guitar tracks (stereo) and panning the same tracks in mono to see the comparison. It may be my imagination but the mono tracks seemed ever so slightly clearer than the stereo tracks. How do you guys do your guitars or prefer them? Mono or stereo?

Dave


Offline NickT

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I was experimenting with mono vs stereo last night. Panning 2 guitar tracks (stereo) and panning the same tracks in mono to see the comparison. It may be my imagination but the mono tracks seemed ever so slightly clearer than the stereo tracks. How do you guys do your guitars or prefer them? Mono or stereo?

Dave

I like mono guitar tracks unless there is a certain Stereo FX I am trying to capture with the track.

I am sure that stereo vs. mono has something to do with pan laws you are using and placement of the track.

Nick
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Offline DoozerDan

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Hmm, and I always thought that stereo was better for guitar  ??? Just goes to show how much I know... I'll have to try Mono more often. 

One day I need to get me some monitors so I can mix with something other then headphones, at the moment I mix with the cans (HD280 Pros), then play it through my stereo system (Some Sony thing with a sub) there is so much difference, espiecally the vocals, what I can hear really well through the cans, I can hardly hear through the stereo, it's a real juggle to get something that sounds right on both of them. I really need to get right down and listen to more songs of the song genre I'm mixing. And work out what goes where.

I also need to leave a lil more headroom, prolly pushing it a little to much.

So much to learn :)

Dan.


Offline Appleluza

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Quote
For me, it's been many years of recording experience and doing hundreds of mixes which have helped me understand what works and what doesn't.

I have found that what Cary has said is very true.  I have been "playing" with my music in my home studio now for 10 years, but it has only been since I joined MC two years back that I have really been trying to learn the fundamentals.  I have read a lot of the stuff NickT has pointed me to, and I have learned through some back-and-forth with CD on mixes he has done for me, trying to get what he is hearing and doing and talking about.  I bought the David Moulton Golden Ears ear-training CD's, got better monitors, started addressing some of my listening environment issues and read the SMART books by Bill Gibson (I like them - nice visual examples of how audio works, if that makes sense) and just spent more time listening and trying to understand what it is I hear.

After more than a year of doing this, I can say that I am still terrible -- but (this is the point, I get to it eventually) some of this is starting to click in for me and make sense and I'm starting to get a little confidence when I twist the EQ and compression dials, that I have some clue about what it will do to the music.  And I can appreciate now that this takes years and years of practice, study and experience to get really good.

People on this site have been a great learning resource for me.

Rob
Rob Talbert, Songwriter and Producer for Appleluza, a virtual multi-genre band.


Offline DoozerDan

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Well, good thing I'm young then, and got (hopefully) decades left to learn with  :D

Dan.


Offline CosmicDolphin

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Hey Guys...

Just noticed this thread so I thought I'd post my 2p's worth.

I think for me it all started as a kid.  My Dad was a big HiFi fan and as a six year old upwards would let me come downstairs at night and listen to his Quad system with the big electrostatic speakers.  He would point out the difference in various LP's or new bits of hifi that friends may bring around.  This would include stuff like change the cartridge on the turntable to hear the difference.  At first I couldn't tell , then as I grew up I noticed how awful most of my friends parents systems would sound in comparison, and also how some albums sounded almost unlistenable on a good HiFi.  So I think it taught me what good sound should be like and trained my ears somewhat.

When I got into music it was via computers, not any real musical ability in the traditional sense and I eventually hooked up with other musicians to work on songs whose parents on the whole listened to cheap nasty sounding hifi systems, so I was in an ideal position to play their stuff over better speakers to them and point out how rough it sounded.  It was then I realised I had the better trained ears to do something about it and although my kit was limited to a 4 track cassette and a reverb , I made sure I used high quality interconnects ( borrowed off the HiFi gear ) and boosted the treble to counteract the noise reduction, it was just the natural thing to do for me.  When I got into it more I upgraded to an Adat and an 8 buss desk.  That's when I really learned how to mix.  Each piece of gear I owned was expensive for me, so I chose carefully and learned how to use proerly, read magazines and books , listened to mixes I liked and tried to copy the style on my own stuff , or steal some of the production ideas.  Eventually I had a seprate outboard for Reverb, Delay, Sampler, Exciter, Compressor , MultiFX, but I'd learned to use each one slowly and think that's made a big difference down the line with the amount of plugins etc. around.

So that's the history lesson outta the way !!!!  On to the practicle stuff...

If I'm recording then try to get the source as good as possible.  If it sounds a bit dodgy then it's quicker to re-record than try to fix it later....Rob can vouch for that with the number of tracks I asked him to re-record !  Just use your ears when mic'ing stuff up.

I always for for the shorest cleanest signal path I can and will use expensive cables if i have one, even if it means taking off the HiFi / AV system for a while, I find it makes a small but worthwhile difference.

I try to think of the mix as something that's kinda 3D...it has L/R ( panning ) and height (Lo to Hi Frequency ) .. and depth ( front back which can be achieved with both eq and reverb )

So to me a mix might typically have the bass and vocal in the foreground and guitars to the left and right set back a little and maybe some string further back still occupying a higher position.

I tend to mix drums then bass to get a solid foundation going before I add anything and like to set a mix up to feed a number of busses which I can use as stems ( or submixes ) to help with overall balancing later on.  It also make it easier to spot when stuff is masking other tracks too much as it's easy to just mute a whole bunch of tracks i.e the guitars or backing vocals to play around.

In very general terms I do this: -

Drums - I eq and compress most if not all tracks to suit....take some low end out of the Oheads and blend them in.  I've never used a Hihat mic'd track yet, they come through enough on the room or overheads mics.  Make sure you pan it all correctly and don't get it out of phase.

Bass - quite a bit of compression generally...I find I put quite a bit of treble on to help it cut through as other tracks can mask it.  I generally eq it quite heavily too cutting out muddy sounding freqencies

Vocal - I try not to compress too heavily maybe 4-5 db's gain reduction max and use automation more to keep it above the backing track.  Eq wise I'll try to surgically cut nasty frequencies out and boost the nicer airy sounding ones.

Guitars - Yes Dave, as a rule I'll filter out the lower end depending on how busy the rest of the mix is...I'll pan them around and put delays on if it's that sort of song and generally try anything to make 'em sound a little different.  I put them quite wide to leave space for the vocals.  I like to put a transient enhancer on acoustics to bring out the attack.

Keys - I try to eq them to fit between the other instruments, so cut the stuff that might mask the guitars and boost the sounds above the vocal range.  Again strange effects can help..try anything.

Bv's - I cut all the low end out of 'em and compress teh life out them mostly  >:D

I try not to use too much compression, and keep the dynamics.  I remember having only one compressor I could ever use on a track and the mixes still came out good, I just had to ride more faders...and it's easier with automation now.  I just finished ' it's my time ' for Ali , and that had alot of automation going on to make it more dynamic as the chorus just lost impact otherwise.

I too like to see my mix in Harbal as I know my room has poor acoustics and I need to work around it.  It can show me where I'm missing stuff ( usually the bass )  and I can then go back and add it back in Sonar, though I do use it to shape the master track quite often, sometimes it won't improve it, so I figure I got it spot on originally !  But I like to try it each time.

Here's some screengrabs of Ali's song for you guys to look at.  Hope that helps
We never finish a mix... we simply abandon them.
You can't polish a turd, but you can always spray paint it GOLD
Great songs are not written, they are re-witten


Offline CosmicDolphin

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Here's a few more....

If anyone wants any of it explaining please ask

CD
« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 03:14:49 PM by CosmicDolphin »
We never finish a mix... we simply abandon them.
You can't polish a turd, but you can always spray paint it GOLD
Great songs are not written, they are re-witten


Offline CosmicDolphin

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  There are certain trends which will force the masses to agree that a particular mix is 'good' however mosee (now, looking back) that the mixes of the eighties were over soaked in reverb.  It's a thought to ponder.



I can't even listen to alot of George Michael records ( usually the ballads ) , because he has this mass of reverb over it, and everytime he sings an 's' sounds there's like this explosion of reverb all over the track that I just can't bear.   Hope I haven't ruined anyone's record collection for 'em now.  My wife can't listen either since i told here to listen out for it.

I also think the 90's and 00's will become know for the time when we destroyed alot of the dynamics in our music to gain loudness..I think the backlash has started but there's alot of albums that are very fatigueing to listen to out there nowadays especially in the rock/pop material.

CD
We never finish a mix... we simply abandon them.
You can't polish a turd, but you can always spray paint it GOLD
Great songs are not written, they are re-witten


Offline Studioplayer

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Great info Mark.  8) I still have to really look at everything closer so I may have some questions. This is the kind of info that I was looking for from all you guys. I was hoping this could be one of those on going threads that could help some of us that are not always the greatest mixers. It really helps with visual as well.

Short audio samples could be cool too.  ;)

GREAT stuff guys. Keep em coming as you think of them.  8)

Dave


Offline Thunder

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Offline Studioplayer

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Yeah... but if you want to get it really clean then it should be whisky on the rocks.

Don't want to muddy up things too much.  >:D


 

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