Musicians Collaboration Studio

MC Acoustic Drum Clinic

NickT · 42 · 28167
 

Offline NickT

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Here it is! The MC Acoustic drum clinic.

We have quite a few drummers going with acoustic kits. We all know how hard it is to get a good recording with acoustic sets. And it's even harder to get them to sound good enough to be on a major release. And that is everyones goal, isn't it?

Things I would like covered.

  • Drum tuning
  • Room acoustics
  • Mic selection
  • Preamp selection
  • Mic Placement
  • Recording Levels
  • Mixing
  • Track Compression and EQ
  • Drum Buss Compression
  • Verbs and FX

And anything else we can think of.

We will need someone to run this clinic. Cary has been busy but I hope he might bite or at least give us some pointers!

Lets hear about what you might want to get from this clinic.

Thanks,

NickT
NickT

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Offline groverk

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Thanks for starting this Nick.

I can supply some tracks for this.

Should we have tracks that go to a song so we can see how it would sit in a mix?

Ken


Offline Cary

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I'm sorry guys... I won't have much time to run this, but I will give as much input as I can.

That's a good list Nick.  I would agree that those are all important aspects of getting a good sound.  Since I'm always having to get the most from non perfect situations, I can share what I believe gets the most bang for the buck.

The kit and tuning is the most important IMO.  You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear (of whatever the phrase is...)  A good sound from the kick and snare are essential - they determine the overall sound of the groove.  There is always hope.

Kick - I believe in a vent / mic hole in the front head.  About 8 inches in diameter is a nice starting point.  The idea behind the hole in the head is only to provide a way to get the kick mic up near the beater side head.  If the hole is too small, it's a pain to move the stand around to tweak the sound.  If the hole is too large, it's like having no front head at all - and I believe in the front head for its resonance benefits.  Oh, I usually have the front head fairly loose - just past visible wrinkles.  I tune the beater side head fairly low also, but not too low that is all click.  Last, a little damping with a small pillow or felt does the trick.  YMMV

Snare - Anything works, it's all about the heads.  For the snare side, the typical single ply head is right - tune it fairly tight and make sure it's in tune with itself.  The stick side is artists choice, but make sure it's tuned correctly.  Some that I have used and have had good results with are the REMO power stroke, or control sound, and lately I've been using an EVANS Genera coated head.  I like a dry, snappy snare sound and that head does the trick.

Regarding the snare strainer, don't get fooled about the hype regarding strainer materials and strand count.  The average steel 16 strand strainer is going to do the job.  It just needs to be at the correct tightness.  Too loose, and the sound is undefined and tends to have a long decay.  Too tight, and the sound is choked.  Starting from full loose, hit the drum and begin the tighten the strainer.  You'll hear a point where the sound is at it's most articulate.  Double stroke rolls are clearly defined.  That's the tension (in my opinion) where the strainer needs to be.

If you find the snare is resonating with the toms and kick (excessively), you can try tuning the bottom head a bit tighter.  On the other hand, it could be overly ringing toms.  I would not recommend damping the bottom head.  Properly tuned, there is no reason for that.

Toms - these can be a pain, agreed?  I have tried lots of stuff to get a good tom sound.  I like deep resonant sounds, so I tend to tune fairly low.  Floppy heads sound like trash though, so you need to find the lowest tension the drum can tolerate - if you're also looking for the big tom sound.  Again, there's so much silly hype on tuning the toms - perfect fourths, off notes in the song, whatever.  Studio rings and or Moon gel work wonders to dampen excessive ringing.

I'm not going to go into great detail on mics because I believe the basics are established.  Most of the drummers here understand the need for a proper kick drum mic, etc.  Mic placement, however, is probably not too greatly understood.  If you're going to use multiple mics on the kit, then you need to place them to maximize isolation.  Every microphone has a specific pickup pattern.  Cardioid, Omni, figure 8, etc.  We'll assume that most of the mics in question are cardioid.  An SM57, for example is a cardioid mic which means that the mic is most sensitive at the end.  I side address condenser mic is most sensitive at the side.  Why do you need to understand this?  Because you want to aim the most UNSENSITIVE part (the null) of the mic at the next loudest thing near it.  For example, when setting the mic on the snare, be careful to put the null facing the high-hat.  If the snare mic is far enough away from the hi-hat, then make sure the null is facing the kick.  Take the time to look at the pickup patterns supplied with the documentation of the mic.  When you learn and understand the way the stuff works, it will help you place the mics for optimum isolation.  There's nothing like a snare track that only has snare.

Don't be afraid to put the mic close to the head.  In my opinion, 5 inches away is too far.  I have my mics about an inch from the head, facing into the center on the drum shell.  The kick mic is the exception, usually inside the shell (through the front head hole) about 5 inches away from the beater head midway between the beater and the rim

The placement of overheads seems to be a great mystery also.  The overheads capture most of the natural sound of the drums.  These mics by themselves should give you the typical sound of the kit.  Generally, the pair is panned hard right and left.  Store that for future reference.  The sound of the typical drum kit features the kick and snare dead center, and the rest of the kit panned out in stereo.  Keep this in mind when placing your overhead mic.  You CANNOT just place the mics 4 feet apart on top of the kit.  That would give you the kick in the center and the snare off to the right.  Placement is as follows:  Looking down on the kit from above, draw an imaginary line directly through the kick and the snare.  Now place your overheads on each side of this imaginary line.  You'll find in most situations that the right overhead is towards the front of the kit and the left overhead is behind the kit.  When placing the mics like this, you can pan them hard right and left and still have the kick and snare in the center.  There are other methods - xy, mid/side, etc that provide good stereo imagery.  The method described will definitely work.

This is a huge topic and I hope we all learn from it.  I'm not professing to be an expert, but I am professing to have experience.  The stuff I've shared is what works for me.  If you try any of it and it helps you to get a better recording, then I have accomplished my goal.
Cary


Offline NickT

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Cary -

Thank you for that detailed explanation! That is a great start to what I hope is an informative clinic.

I would love to hear from the drummers up to the point of miking. Then we could move on to some recording of tracks to play with.

Thanks!

Nick

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Offline groverk

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Offline Gerk

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A few general statements:

Kick drums:  remember, a big goal of a kick drum is to move air.  moving air == bottom end.  Keep this in mind when tuning your kick drum.  If the head is too loose it can sound very papery (as Cary mentioned).  If the head is too tight it can sound too thin.  It's an art unto itself to get a happy compromise.  I tend to keep my kick head as loose as I can stand playing it.  A little more than just tight enough to get rid of the crinkles but not so much that you can't easily push the head in with a finger at the center and there is a decent amount of travel on it there (at least one half to a full inch).

Snare drums: Snare drums are complicated beasts.  There are many different ways to tune them, and many different ways to _hit_ them to get the sound that you want.  A very very good drummer once told me something that I took very much to heart.  The best sound you will get for a rock snare drum involves NOT hitting the rim, i.e. don't always do rim shots.  To get a good balance of crack and boom you need to hit the drum in the middle, hit it well (as in with good style/accuracy) and not necessarily hit is so hard that you choke it out.  There are a lot of different methods for tuning snare drums.  As Cary mentioned a common problem is your bottom head getting sympathetic vibration from other drums.  There can be a couple of different causes for this: sympathetic vibrations due to it being close to the pitch of another drum (like a tom), and plain old vibration that it may pick up from being too close to another drum (that's not related to sympathetic/pitch related vibration).  If it's sympathetic you can tune the bottom head either higher or lower.  If it's plain old vibration make sure to isolate your snare drum (and stand) from the rest of the kit as much as you can.

Tuning: every drum is different and has an optimum tuning for itself.  It doesn't necessarily have relation to the other drums around it, the song that you're playing, fourth's, fifth's, or any other preset interval.  It can take a lot of time to find each drum's happy place, but it's well worth it.  Another trick that I tend to use more often than not is to tune the bottom head just slightly higher in pitch than the top head .. this tends to help manage the overtones/ring of the tomw without resorting to rings, muffling or any other kind of dampening.  The more dampening you have on _any_ drum, the less tone you get out of it.  Sometimes that's what you want, but keep that in mind.  Spend the time with each drum to find out where it wants to live pitch wise.  You'll know when you find the sweet spot :)  The drum will "sing" not "ring" :D

You'll notice that I didn't talk about any micing at all yet, I'll take the time to get into that in another post in the near future.  I think it's very very important to get the right sound into the mics (whatever mics they are and wherever you've placed them), and not just "fix it in the mix" by apply a bunch of EQ'ing and/or plugins to it to get that sound.  Some of the best kit sounds I've ever gotten had little to do with my engineering skills and more to do with the tuning of the kit :)  If you spend the time to get the drums sounding proper you'll likely find you don't need a lot of anything on them to make them sound good .. because they already do.

Lastly, and this is something that a lot of people tend to forget, is that when you are tuning your drums, you are tuning them to sound good at the position of the MIC ... not where your ears are.  It's easy to fall into the trap of tuning up drums to get them sounding sweet to your ears where you sit behind the kit (or stand in front of it, or wherever your ears are at the time), but when you put a mic in front of it it sound totally different.  Sometimes a drum that sounds amazing on a mic might not sound quite as sweet where you're sitting behind the kit or from elsewhere in the room either.  Keep this in mind!

Mark


Offline groverk

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Quote
Lastly, and this is something that a lot of people tend to forget, is that when you are tuning your drums, you are tuning them to sound good at the position of the MIC ... not where your ears are.  It's easy to fall into the trap of tuning up drums to get them sounding sweet to your ears where you sit behind the kit (or stand in front of it, or wherever your ears are at the time), but when you put a mic in front of it it sound totally different.  Sometimes a drum that sounds amazing on a mic might not sound quite as sweet where you're sitting behind the kit or from elsewhere in the room either.  Keep this in mind!
Good tip Mark. I spent 3 hours moving mic's last night recording samples, going back to adjust, rerecording over again, and again. I never once thought to listen from where the mic was pointing.

Thanks

Ken


Offline groverk

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Heres some samples from last night.

One with fx and one dry

Ken


I forgot to mention, I did not have my ride or crashes set up.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 03:05:29 PM by groverk »


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Excellent thread folks  :D

I read a lot of the data here but not all.

That tuning issue is really important when it comes to drums... I always say I am not a drummer but I play a little. And I have been doing for a long time. I recorded drums mainly in analog years ago and had all the big mixers and all the mikes and I know how hard it can be to get the drums to sound and record properly. I recall recording in a corner of the room on a good solid carpet got a good result. Not a concrete basement but even one the dry wall and finished rooms. I really to close to a window you would get the window vibrating and the snare was a hard one to get it to sound good in the recording. Some drummers like that Stewart Copeland snare sound.. "ME TOO" but I feel they fall short of achieving it properly. Somehow I feel JW comes close. I like the sound of his snare. There are some other drummers here that get a fab sound as well but I don't know what they are using. I saw a video by I think the guys name is Steve Gadd on drums that was a gift for me and I learned a lot a long time ago. And I read what Gerk said about the tightness of the bass drum pegs. It's true.. I experience the same thing for the most part. Guys I am a bass & guitar player when I used to go into the drum shops and melt. I just love drums. 

Ken you are one hell  >:D of a player and your kit sounds great. Gerk I heard your kit and is sounds awesome in tunes heard around the colab sites.  Cary seems to have a lot of experience too. Great thread I am learning a lot just reading it.

I did a few test to your wave clips ken. I deleted them now. It was fun. Nothing great just having fun. I did not hear crash cymbals in the clips. I guess it's because it was just a test to hear the snare, bass drums and toms. Tom wise I like when drums are tuned in order almost like notes on the guitar. Not sure if I am saying it right.. When the drummer hits the toms and they each have their own sound and tone and sound nice. They don't sound BOMMY.

Keep up the great work

Tubes  ;)
   
 


Offline groverk

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Hey Tubes, yeh I did'nt have my cymbals setup. They were still packed from the night before. Right now I only have a exta set of hats. I'm working on getting another set of cymbals so I don't have to move them back and forth for gigs. I also can't stand my ride for recording but it's great for live stuff.

The tight snare sound. I'm not a big fan of that sound although it's great for some songs but it's not the sound I'm going for. I like a fatter less poppy sound. Thats just a personal preference. Right now my biggest hurdle is the toms. kick and snare are close but the toms are killing me. I'm using 10, 12, and 14 .  I tuned the 10 as low as I could get it and then did the others a 3rd apart . I may try using coated heads on the toms to try and get more attack plus better positioning with the overheads may help also. I may also ditch the 10 move everything over one and set up my 16. Lots of choices so little time. :-\

Stay tuned  :)

Ken


Offline NickT

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Heres some samples from last night.

One with fx and one dry

Ken


I forgot to mention, I did not have my ride or crashes set up.

That sounds good Ken. Decent levels and the tuning sounds good. Do you have the overheads in play?

Nick
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Offline luisma1972

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........Some of the best kit sounds I've ever gotten had little to do with my engineering skills and more to do with the tuning of the kit :)  If you spend the time to get the drums sounding proper you'll likely find you don't need a lot of anything on them to make them sound good .. because they already do......

Excellent post Mark! and this concept applies to any acoustic source when recording. Always try to get the best sound you possibly can out of your source, then do the mic thing.....  >:D
Luis Manuel Aguilar


Offline groverk

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Yep Nick.

Overhead were in, but I didn't have my crashes up so they were picking up the kit pretty good . I'm going to reposition them according to
Quote
Placement is as follows:  Looking down on the kit from above, draw an imaginary line directly through the kick and the snare.  Now place your overheads on each side of this imaginary line.
. The way I had them setup they were really crash mic's instead of overheads.

BTW the toms are all miced with the podium mics I told you about ( Audio Technica AT837QML ) :)


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You know the strange thing is some of those drum loops.. "drums on demand" and others get a great sound in the final loops and there are no separates they really give you including the snare. They seem to record it really well. Maybe looking at what they are using might shed some light on some things. I know they use a pro studio but what type of board are they plugged into, mikes, placement, etc.

The Stray cats got a nice snare sound. McCartneys "Silly LOve Songs".. I love the drums in that song.

The drum skins are something else that are important when recording. I think I had clear ones and they had some sort of oil in between them. They are expensive and hitting them too hard damages them. Like guitar strings. Old ones get a bad sound after a while. Bass strings I don't replace as often as the guitar but their type matters too.

Tubes ;) 


Offline Cary

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Right now my biggest hurdle is the toms. kick and snare are close but the toms are killing me. I'm using 10, 12, and 14 .  I tuned the 10 as low as I could get it and then did the others a 3rd apart . I may try using coated heads on the toms to try and get more attack plus better positioning with the overheads may help also. I may also ditch the 10 move everything over one and set up my 16. Lots of choices so little time. :-\

Stay tuned  :)

Ken

Intreresting... I listened to your dry wav file.  One of the toms sounded very nice and I think it was the 10"  It couild be mic position and or mix.
Please tell us what mics you used and where they were placed... for those example files you posted.
If you're brave, post small sections of the seperate uneffected wav files.  It would be nice to hear what went into the DAW.

nice work so far bud.  :)
Cary


 

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