Lead vox levels

[bill]

I recently commented about this on an ongong song thread where I thought the lead vox line was getting buried in parts.  Turns out many others had also listened and found nothing amiss.  I'm fine with that - I've no part in the song (other than really liking it).  And if the direct participants are happy with the results, how could I say they're wrong?   

I don't think I'm wrong, either, but will readily acknowledge that this is totally subjective.  So I'm curious as to how the rest of ya's approach it, what  yardsticks/guidelines you use, etc... 

I'll start - with two basic premises that I use...

One - the lead singer is not "just another instrument" in the mix.  What he/she does with a lyric is what seperates a "song" from just another instrumental piece, it makes it or breaks it.  He/she should be easily heard (if not necessarily understood) above all other parts.  Put another way, there's a reason the lead singer of any group is called the "front man", and it's not only because of where he stands on a stage.  Which leads directly to...

Two - I subscribe to the "pyramid" school of mixing.  Meaning, one part's always on top.  Directly supporting roles come right behind the lead role.  Backing/support/fills are yet another step down.  Choose the quantity of "layers" you want to work with - depends on the song.  That doesn't mean parts can't exchange positions - but if one moves up a layer, something else must move down to compensate.  It's oversimplified, but you get the idea.  And yeah, there are exceptions - duets, dual leads, etc... 

And then there's my personal bias.  It likely comes from my stints as a song-writer - I love a well-written (and well-delivered) lyric, and I want to be able to hear what the lyricist wrote.  Depending on the singer, that's not always easy!  Ie - Hendrix - "Excuse me while I kiss this guy"     But heh, at least I could hear him well enough to easily mis-interpret what I thought I heard...

So...

The long and short of it is that there's no "right" or "wrong" answer - just different opinions, and different approaches.

What are yours?   

[CosmicDolphin]

I think it depends on the song....some songs are all about the lyrics and the emotion of the vocals , other songs are more about the rhythm section and the groove and it doesn't matter so much that it took you 4 or 5 listens to get the chorus because the instuments are a huge hook in themselves.

Songs like 'Oh No' I think of them in the latter category , as long as you can follow the story of the verse and you can get that it shouts 'Oh No' in the chorus it works....if all you come away remembering is the shout of ' Oh No' then it's done it's job as that's the hook that needed driving home.

On that songs , the vocals ride up 2-3db in the chorus which I think is enough as the Bv's are quite prominent.  I rode the lead vocal track manually using the fader port....switched off the PC monitor and sat in the dark with the my finger on the fader so I could listen rather than using my eyes. So that was a pre-compression ride , the kinda thing that you might do in the old days as something went down to tape. Means you don't need to work the compressor so hard.  Then as the mix progressed I drew in some automation on the vocal buss.  These particular vocals were distorted on the recording in some of the chorus parts so I was working around it.

Attached is a screengrab of the vocals , where you can see the automation on both the track and the buss.

Maybe we should get something like this..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMiDEzKv09o



CD

[Tricia41]

I agree Bill. A song is lyrics and melody. A song can be sung. Without the vocal, a song is a piece of music, an instrumental.
If you listen to modern pop music, the vocal is the loudest. Sometimes you can't even make out the chord changes of the music underneath!

[Vincent]

Vocals are the star in most cases.

Vocals and bass guitar are the hardest to mix for me...each voice needs to be treated slightly different.

I still use the same plugins on every vocal i mix however the eq,comp and deesser need adjustments.

My weakest part of mixing is vocals and bass...I can treat vocals ok (not great) but to find the proper mix of verb and delays to get the vocals to sit in the mix and not on top of the mix is tough...just have to keep working at it untill I find the sound Im looking for...have not found it yet.


I kind of know what ingredients it takes to get a good vocal sound in a mix however I cant seem to find the right recipe with the ingredients I have up to this point.

 

-------------

Right now I boost vocals in two spots to seperate it from the other instruments...All I do is highpass (untill it sounds good) then boost vocal in 2 areas...seems to seperate vocals and they dont get burried.

[NickT]

I tend to err with the vox up front. But because of the nature of the beast, that this collabing is, sometimes the vox are good, but not great. In that case I try to find a happy medium.

I will close my eyes and try to hear every word. If I can't it's back to square one. I am not big into envelopes, rather I like to beat the vox into submission with compressors and limiters. 

Nick

[Gerk]

Advice from Gary Katz which applies even moreso if you're going to be mastering your song after the fact (or sending it out for mastering) is to get the vocals to where you think they should be, then raise it 0.5db and worry about it in mastering.  He apparently always asks for the song mixed like that when you send him stuff to master, where you like it and then 0.5db louder!

[CosmicDolphin]

, where you like it and then 0.5db louder!

Good call...at the end I often print a mix 1db more and see which one I like the next day.

CD

[docmidnite]

Songs like 'Oh No' I think of them in the latter category , as long as you can follow the story of the verse and you can get that it shouts 'Oh No' in the chorus it works....if all you come away remembering is the shout of ' Oh No' then it's done it's job as that's the hook that needed driving home.

On that songs , the vocals ride up 2-3db in the chorus which I think is enough as the Bv's are quite prominent.  I rode the lead vocal track manually using the fader port....switched off the PC monitor and sat in the dark with the my finger on the fader so I could listen rather than using my eyes. So that was a pre-compression ride , the kinda thing that you might do in the old days as something went down to tape. Means you don't need to work the compressor so hard.  Then as the mix progressed I drew in some automation on the vocal buss.  These particular vocals were distorted on the recording in some of the chorus parts so I was working around it.

Attached is a screengrab of the vocals , where you can see the automation on both the track and the buss.

Maybe we should get something like this..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMiDEzKv09o
CD

OMG CD you had a hell of a job with my voclals, bro! Sorry for that and I will have a closer look on my levels  while singing the next time! Thanks so much for your effoert in turning this tune into sometzhing special.

[docmidnite]

BTW: How do you do those screenshots?

[CosmicDolphin]

BTW: How do you do those screenshots?

Henry , that's what I usally do - I didn't have to go to any extra effort than normal 

I use a free program called MWSnap for the screengrabs...quite a handy little util.

CD