Sync Issues

[Tacman7]

I've seen threads about files types and how to make a drumless track etc. But don't think I've come across how parts should be sent to be in sync.

I'm talking about a small part in the middle of a song or a guitar solo etc.

When I record a part I use -auto punch in- to the closest measure before I start to play. That way the part starts on an even measure.
So it should fit in any sequencer running at the same tempo if it was placed in the correct measure.

The only other method I could see would be to put a bunch of blank space on the front with the click to line it up.

Haven't had a lot of experience with this so thought I'd see what people have been doing in this situation.

Thanks

[sergio]

see Nick's response from other thread - assuming you use APE - the dead air takes up no space in the compressed file - sergio

[Gerk]

The best thing I've found is to _always_ include the click count in (or barring having a click count in the first bar of music) on your submitted tracks, and it's very important to actually _record_ this click countin through your setup as opposed to just pasting it in to the beginning or the track (for reasons I explain in the next paragraph).  The person mixing will thank you immensly!

Also going back and forth between some setups, even a track that starts at the very beginning of the bed you were given may not line up perfectly due to latency changes, etc ... so include those count in's folks!  At least with a sharp sounding click it's easier to line up the waveforms visually (as well as audio wise).

HTH

Mark

[dogbizkits]

Essential point:

The best thing I've found is to _always_ include the click count in (or barring having a click count in the first bar of music) on your submitted tracks, and it's very important to actually _record_ this click countin through your setup

Yes... as Mark says it's absolutely essential to do this.

Another little refinement that I and some other guys use is to have a little track that plays a series of very short and accurately-spaced sync "beeps". This track is aligned to time=zero and any recording that's being done (i.e., rhythm guitar) MUST listen to and record these beeps on their track. These beeps are what the mix engineer uses to perfectly align all tracks that contain them. Nobody should be cutting and pasting-in clicks to the start of any track when using this method. The playback (sync) track I use has the first "beep" at precisely 1 second, followed by another 4 at 1 second intervals. As long as everyone on a given collaboration works to the same sync convention, the mix engineer will be able to lock all tracks together with ease. It's really easy to create one of these tracks if you can edit accurately in your chosen software package [provided your software does allow you to go down to m/sec]. If anyone want's to use this method and wants a copy of the sync track I made, then just shout.

Rab 

[Gerk]

Ahh neat.  Kinda like a video countdown clock .. 5 ... 4 ... 3 ... 2 ... 

Mark

[youtube]

It's a good thing you guys started this thread. I am re-posting some data from another forum that belongs here. We all help each other and not everyone is technical. Some folks and great artists cannot even read music but their talents are bigger than live. Some of us are good at many things.. some fewer..

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Alignment should be discussed in the proper forum and it is an issue a lot of the times. I have noticed this here. Certain software suites import an export with a different alignment than others do. Some default the track and keep it the same. Other like Cu base you have to setup to do that. I have used MANY of them. The click is very important. And export the track with air in it and make sure the click is in there. Sometimes say a drummer for example sakes drops by and does a take to your posted drum less. he may simply import, do a drum take, export and post his wave into a transfers wma/mp3. Wma keep is relatively the same. What changes it is his software export setup. We cannot read minds so we don't know what he is using. MP3 on the other hand puts artifacts into the mix and changes the alignment all together. WMA is great but you need to watch the setup. try to send it out exact to the tracker you tracked to. Make sure your setup is setup to "0" space. In cubase you have to set the transponder bar to -1-1-1.0 to do that.

Nick when folks have read this you can move it to the proper forum.

Tubes

[NickT]

The biggest problem with lining up tracks has more times than not been when someone used an mp3 to track to. The space that most programs put in front of the file is annoying. But as long as the original bed track has a click, I have found it pretty easy to get things lined up.

[Studioplayer]

Most of the time everything syncs up with no problems. Wma, mp3, wav. As long as there's a click in front it's usually not an issue. The only time I've had a problem is when someone recorded with a stand-alone recorder like a Tascam. I've found that the bpm was inaccurate and had a hell of a time lining things up. I was just working on Kellys tracks and noticed that all the tracks are ever so slightly off. I'm curious as to his recording equipment. I'm about to ask. 

Dave

[youtube]

He records on a stand alone Boss Machine I beleive is what he has said before in the forum. Not sure if it is digital
but sound like a hard disk recorder to me. Could be an analog machine. I dout it though. Most likely  digital gear.

Tubes

[Letizia]

Dave, in those cases, have you tried using non whole numbers for the bpm? when i was using an external drum machine for a click, it was always steady (didn't fluctuate), but it was some odd # (EG) 120.54567 bpm

for all... this is where it helps greatly to have a click audible at the start and the end... makes it easier to compute the actual bpm. and leave that count-in (count-out) untouched... no reverb, compression or any fx. this means no fx on the master bus when exporting seperates. keeping it dry/untouched makes it very easy to visually line up the clicks because the wave form will look exactly the same as the original. if you insist on using fx on your seps, only use it on the individual tracks, not the master.

i know it can happen,  but i've never experienced a tune that was tracked to a click that (unintentionally) changed tempo throughout the song... no matter what format was used.

raises a red flag when people say things like... "i had to slice and move it every 8 bars to get it to fit the tempo/grid."  this tells me they're using the wrong tempo in their software compared to the track that's being lined up. possible reasons... either the person recording the track (unknowingly) changed the tempo of the original or the producer is trying to force fit an odd bpm (120.9487466) into a standard bpm (120)

[youtube]

Thanks Letizia excellent information. Very true. Makes a world of sense.

Tubes

[Studioplayer]

Letizia, That's exactly the problem I've encountered before. The bpm being (EG) 120.54567 bpm. It would be helpful to have a click at the end in those cases. I've never seen anyone do it. I think this may be the issue with Kelly2a's song. I'll have to take a closer look. Never had this problem when people use computer based digital recording programs. Only with outside machines.

Thanks for the info
Tubes, I just asked Kelly to see what he's using.

Dave

[Tacman7]

I've had a problem with mp3. Expanding it and cutting off the dead air before the click fixed it.

I do the beat calculator on 1 beat to find the tempo but if it's real close I'll use the closest whole number. Like if I get 80.017 It's probably just 80bpm. It's hard to select exactly one beat, getting just when the beat starts to sound up to just before the next beat starts to sound. Of course if there's problems later in the song I go back to the odd number.

I've had problems with people who record with hardware then xfer to computer, weird stuff there.

Tubes' version of cubase gets recording before the first beat so his files have a bunch of dead air before clicks so they have to be aligned where I can usually just drop files in without having to sync them if they start recording on the 1st beat.

[Gerk]

The timing shifts with mp3 can be large or very very small, but they are almost always there.  think in the magnitude of frames -- anywhere from 1 to .

That said though, clicks will always help, no matter what format you use to xfer your material   It's a good practive to follow.

Mark